Let’s Talk Turtles: Conservation and Climate Data Coming to the Rescue for the Places you Love
This week we talked turtles! The connection between conservation and climate change might not be obvious but conservation is crucial to support Natural Climate Solutions, climate mitigation and adaptation measures and to protect our biodiversity! Let alone the inherent value of turtles.
Ways to Support Mi’kmaq fisheries - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u_LF_bCFBbSijzqJgHNh4-MfpYz0hfdv/view
The Algonquin Wildlife Research Station, where Jackie works. Check out their Instagram, I promise it’s worth it. - https://www.algonquinwrs.ca, https://www.instagram.com/algonquinwrs/
Jackie’s bio - https://laurentian.ca/faculty/jlitzgus
The study that assessed the effectiveness of Indigenous lead conservation as compared to government managed conservation: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1462901119301042
More Ontario turtle resources!
https://ontarioturtle.ca/turtles/
https://cottagelife.com/outdoors/how-to-identify-ontarios-8-species-of-turtles/
Transcript:
Jackie 0:13
Passive versus Active conservation.
Passive ways, cordoning off nature and keeping people. But in terms of the research that we do in my lab, it's definitely more in that category of active conservation, active conservation research to address those threats by testing recovery actions and testing mitigation strategies, the science to say this can work or this can work.
Kiran 0:40
Welcome to Rebalancing Act! We are Kiran Waterhouse and Leslie Anne St. Amour, two law graduates and friends. Thank you so much for joining us. We know the climate crisis here and that we have to solve. So every two weeks we talk about how we can get there. Today, Leslie Anne and Professor Jackie Litzgus of Laurentian university, talking about their deep and abiding love of turtles, conservation, and how we can all be a friend to critters, on climate eyes, we discussed mangroves and before we get into the main content of this episode, we want to address the violence currently happening in Nova Scotia. A Mi'kmaq community in Nova Scotia launched its own regulated lobster fishery, after having their right to fish for moderate livelihood confirmed by the Supreme Court of Canada in 1999. Non-Indigenous fishermen have reacted with violence and threats, due to an alleged concern for conservation, however there are approximately 350 Mi'kmaq traps and over 300,000, commercial traps, and the feeling that the Mi'kmaq fishery is unregulated is false. It is simply regulated by Mi'kmaq governance rather than the federal government. You can find a document with information on where to donate, templates for writing to elected officials, where to get more information and a wish list of needs for the people on the frontlines in the show notes.
Leslie Anne St Amour 2:08
Would you like to introduce yourself, tell our listeners a little bit about what you do?
Jackie 2:11
Sure. I'm a professor at the Laurentian University. And my research is focusing mostly on the ecology and conservation of reptiles with most of the focus on turtles. And the whole the whole goal of my research program is to collect really solid, good scientific data that can be used to be the evidence to inform decisions about protection and recovery and mitigation of threats.
Leslie Anne St Amour 2:38
Can you tell us a little bit some of the turtles you work with.
Jackie 2:42
I think just in general, turtles demand respect. And I'm intrigued by turtles I grew up catching. They've always gathered my interest, but they demand respect because of evolutionary ingenuity, right? That shell, and there's a whole body for a change. I mean, they're really the shoulders, their ribs, right? So now they're like, where their arms attaches inside the ribs, outside the ribs, like the whole body plan is changing. And it's been like that for like 230 billion years. 200 and 30 billion years. And then if you change the scale, big scale, anything about an individual turtle, that individual turtle can live for over 100 years. So just think about that one female snapping turtle and what she does she just so to me, it's just instantly, they demand respect. And their appearance is just so unusual as all these reasons. So in the long term study, now, this 49 data collection, we have captured and marked about 100 different payment hurdles, and over 1100 different standards. So that's a lot. That's individuals. That's not just numbers, per se, that's different individuals. I collaborate on funding this long term project is Dr. Brock Brooks is a professor emeritus from university worlds. And he started a project. And then when he retired, I stepped in to help take care of the project. And then also Dr. Rawlinson is also helping so we have the group of us continuing with this work. So we have graduate students from both Graduate University and University of Toronto that are working on the project, those students get to go in the field, and they get to follow the turtles around and see these individuals who they see, you know, some of these turtles that Dr. Brooks saw in 1970s, they still come up with these girls still come up onto this end at the dam, and they still lay their eggs, and it's just amazing to reconnect those individuals. But another interesting piece of having somebody who's missing some turtles, and then you're worried oh my goodness, they've done something and then they show up again. And 2019 So last year there were seven painted turtles that were captured who had been missing in action for over 10 years. So it's turtles vanishing, and then all of a sudden, you know, they were back, and that's seven turtles. And so that was pretty interesting. Because in all the previous years, there hasn't been that many turtles in a single season show up. And there was one of those turtles that had been gone for 19 years. So the assumption was that she had died. But everybody was like "Welcome back to the study!"
Leslie Anne St Amour 5:30
Do you have any favorite stories about trying to catch turtles or tag turtles or looking for turtles?
Jackie 5:37
I'd like to mention, one turtle is sort of special from the Algonquin Park study. And he died a while ago, but he's just he's kind of neat. So he's this great big male snapping turtle, and his his tag was why 11 and he was named bird. And he was named after Burt Reynolds, because he was so important to him. He was like a main guy who lived in the main lane right there at the research station. And so he was in lots of like, media things. Television Video thing, you know, I mean, like, you know, and he was also such a part of the study, you could, the researchers would go out in the canouan Lakes, where the station is and they could tap on the, with their paddle, and Burt would come swimming, to say I get a treat. Like he came. Unfortunately, he died in 2002. And he was estimated to be like, 17 years old. At that point, he died. And Dr. Ron Brooks who didn't start this project has a special affection in his heart for her. And when birds die, Dr. Brooks actually wrote this sort of obituary that was a tribute to Bert. So it's kind of a fun story to to think about him and his participation in the project for a long time that you just kind of start.
Leslie Anne St Amour 6:53
And like the relationship that everyone got to build with them.
I'm going to have to keep an eye out next time I'm in the park because I've definitely seen some, some gorgeous, bigger than a basketball sized snappers out there. So a lot of people think of conservation as cordoning off an area we leave it be, we don't go there. But that's not the only way conservation can happen. And what you just said about how a big turtle provides an opportunity for people to have this memory, the turtle, they saw on a little bit of interaction, I think it's part of this as well, because when we cordon off nature and conservation people don't have those experiences. Could you talk to us a little bit about the different kind of forms of conservation that can exist, and maybe some of the pros and cons and some of them this idea of passive versus active.
Jackie 7:53
You're interested in this, this passive way of cordoning off nature and keeping people out. But in terms of the research that we do in my lab, it's definitely more in that category of active conservation. Because the work that we're trying to do is addresses specific threats to turtles, turtles, as a group are one of the most endangered groups of animals on the planet, right third, and big trouble of the 350 species on the planet, like two thirds of them are considered at risk of extinction. So they're in trouble. The main threats, of course, habitat destruction, which is true for any animal or plant that's in decline. Road mortality is a big deal for turtles collection for the pet. Food trade is also a big deal for turtles. And then excessive predation, like too much predation, predation of bests beyond what the population can handle. And then predation of adults, of course, a really big problem. So we try to active conservation research to address those threats by testing recovery actions and testing mitigation strategies, the science to say this can work or this can work to do that action. So for example, in the passive way of setting habitat aside, there's certainly benefits to that. But wouldn't it be better if we could take an active approach and actually quantify the habitats that are needed? What are the critical habitats in advises animal? And how much of that critical habitat does it need? So for example, critical habitats, to things like nesting sites, obviously, the population can persist and the beetle doesn't have anywhere to layer it. Right? Or hibernation sites. And this is especially true for Northern Ontario Algonquin Park area for over half the life of the animals spent in hibernation. So obviously, that's a very, you know, we don't often think about them, you think about our summer adventures. But these animals deal with winter conditions for half their lives. And that's really important to habitat for them so they can survive. So for active habitat protection, again, I think it's important to collect data to quantify what the critical habitats are. And then to say, Okay, if we're going to plan a nature preserve or the flipside of we're going to play Development, you know, maybe some kind of forestry actions or development of another kind, then they can say don't do it here, because this is where the critical habitat is for these animals. So that's an active way to preserve habitats. And so I had graduate students who have done that exact kind of work. Another one would be like for road war talent, problem rover. So we can we can deploy fencing to keep animals off the road that then funnels them to culverts, or eco passages that allows them to safely get under the roof, which then next to habitats, fragments by the roof. But we've done research on this too, we've done it several different projects. And what we have learned that is that a faulty fence makes the whole system fail. So you need a good solid fence to track those in and close to the equal passages that you want them to use. Because this there's a hole in the fence, Think about turtles, if they live for 100 years, that female has been making the same custom migration every year for like eight years, and then suddenly, they stick around in the way she's still gonna try to get across like she's always done. So there's a hole in that spreadsheet, and that she gets trapped. So we have quantified that if you're going to build it, you got to build it, right. So there's another act of conservation action, in terms of the threat of rain, that one's a little bit harder to play for us to do science on. But at least I think more resources need to be invested into Conservation Officers, and also education to tackle that. And then the predation thread, we've actually, we've been trying to do some active conservation around that aspect and a few different ways. One of them is people will probably see this, you put a cage over top of a turtle has to keep the predators. And we know that that really works. If you build a good cage, it will keep the predators out, we were wondering if we're causing any trouble for the babies developing those eggs when we stick the best over chalk because it would shake it in others. So we tested three different types of test cages. And a really great news. Our science says that that doesn't impact the baby's developing. So that's great news, right? We don't have to protect the finish from predators and the babies are going to be fine. And they can get her everything will be good, having put the cages over turtle mask, but makes me feel better that they are okay. And we thought that was a really important question, because it's really easy to do these sort of quick solutions for predators. But then if the animals gonna live, the baby successfully hatches, you know, it lives for 100 years, we want to make sure it's a good quality baby, so to speak. So we tested them. And there's good news. We've also done things like build artificial nest sites. So females, you know, they'll cross roads back to the road, to cross the road, find the destination. So we build artificial nest sites in places that could intercept emails before they got to the road, say, if you build it, will she come? And the answer is yes, she will. And her babies will develop just as well as in the places that she but the key there, what we found by again doing real science is that you'd have to put the bounds in the right places so that she will find
Leslie Anne St Amour 13:05
sorry, mom, if you're listening, you're now gonna have a sand and gravel mount in your backyard for the turtles, she her yard backs onto a wetland and Kingston, and it's not uncommon for us to find snappers and painted turtles in the backyard, in the driveway, trying to cross the road, I've spent more than one morning sitting in a lawn chair with my cup of coffee, watching the snapper that's trying to lay her eggs in the neighbor's yard and then slowly shooing off like the little boys who come to look and they want to learn and that's fine. Sometimes they poke her, they like pokher, with a stick and trying to interfere and I slowly shoo them away, and I shoot way the dogs, I'm very passive aggressive with my neighbors when it comes to turtles, who are protective. Basically, another thing I wanted to talk about that I know you've worked with a little bit is I know that there's been research throughout showing that there's evidence that indigenous involvement in conservation can make it more effective. I know you've done a little bit of work around this. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
Jackie 14:02
Yeah, great honor to work with several First Nation communities in the eastern Georgian Bay Area, around Sudbury and several of my graduate students, in fact, have worked as fisheries biologists and First Nation communities. So that's been a great way for us to connect with the community. So I think that this, this weaving of indigenous knowledge and experiences with Western science, and the results that are, of course, a much more holistic approach to land conservation as a whole. And so one of the projects we're working on now actually is talking about road road mortality problems. That field of science is called road ecology. But one of the things we're starting to work on now is railroad ecology, because we're finding the railroads are, you know, linear features that go through the landscape that have an impact on the bottom line. And so, one of the projects that we're working on with two of the first nation communities in eastern Georgian Bay is has been involved. Initially having conversations with community members who have noted different animals being struck by the rail by the train on the railway. And so we began with interviews of people in the community, noticing the impact, asking those questions. And once we gathered all that survey information, and we were able to say, okay, we need to focus our western science approaches in these places, because they, the elders in the community members have identified this important thing at that place, let's work together to collect some data now and turned this into a research project as well. So this great partnership, that's so interesting, I never thought about railways, it's quite fascinating, because railways tend to go through more wild spaces that are better, in some respects, right, because they're much narrower, so they can cut through this project that we're working on. On the railways. It's not just usually focused on turtles, snakes kind of thing. But this is on everything, we're talking about. sapiens, we're talking about the large mammals like the internet, which of course, are really important for the bear that we're also finding medium sized mammals that are getting hit on Fox, such as you know, so we're finding this whole gamut of animals that are being impacted, and birds as well. So it's a really, like I said, this holistic approach. And we're weaving together these two approaches to try and really understand what's happening on the landscape.
Leslie Anne St Amour 16:26
Because, yeah, I think that's a really good way to describe it, that weaving together, the two approaches these I find, sometimes when you talk to people about including indigenous knowledge, there's this kind of people feel almost attention, they feel that, well, we're including indigenous knowledge, does that mean we're not including Western knowledge? Or what if they're in disagreement, but that doesn't have to be doesn't have to be attention? I think weaving it together and just using the bathroom, both is a really important way to look at it.
Jackie 16:55
Absolutely.
Leslie Anne St Amour 16:56
And so, particularly now, I'm thinking about the trains, I'm going to ask you this, how would you explain the value of conservation work to people who aren't like us, and that they don't assume the inherent value in turtles and other critters? And I'm thinking now, I wonder if this may be not where you're at in that project? But I'm thinking about the railroad companies, for example, if they do they see the value of doing this kind of work? Or is it you know, it doesn't slow us down? So we don't care? Like how would you have that conversation with somebody.
Jackie 17:26
It's always challenging when jobs show in the context of the railway project that is just starting, I will say, the rail company beats the student every week, to provide the safety and wellness to the player in their in their vehicle, and partners with us for that day so that the student can do the survey along the roadway. They're totally on board with that. I didn't mean to throw the railway companies, you know, under the bus there, but just using them as an example. Your question is so important, because it really depends who you're talking to. You know, so we don't need to explain why we think it's important. But if you want to make arguments to different people in the audience, so during my PhD work, I was radio tracking spotted turtles, and I was working on an article on Nature Conservancy sanctuary, but of course, the turtles don't recognize those boundaries, right. So one of my turtles with a radio transmitter and wandered off into private land, and it was tree plantation. So the director of the Audubon Society took me to meet those landowners so that I could ask permission, of course, to go on their land to track my turtle, the Audubon director, he went with the husband and went and had a conversation. And then I was sitting with the wife in her living room, and very aggressively, she said to me, why does it matter? You know, what, why should I let you on my lands to go find that turtle? Like, what's the value of that turtle threw me on the spot, and just this young stand? And I'm like, What do I say, you know, it's something that sticks in my mind, obviously, and I thought about it a lot. And again, depending on who you're talking to, you have to think about how you might explain the value turtles in another way besides their inherent awesomeness. So one of the things that I think is important is their role in biodiversity. And they're integral to biodiversity. So turtles, if you want to talk about it is sort of ecosystem services way you know, so that's one of the things is that turtles are they play a vital role in energy transfer between terrestrial ecosystems back and forth, right, the turtle eggs that do get eaten by predators, and that's okay shop turtle eggs, by predators and populations, okay? But that means that energy transfers to that next level in the ecosystem. And then when they're when they're digging in the sand, you know, some of the energy that goes in that thing, but, and then there's also turtles are dispersed. So when a turtle eats fruits or plants and then walk somewhere else, and it poops, it drops the seed and disperses that plan. So that's really important. There's another set of studies that have shown importance of turtles for cleaning water systems. So for example, officials if you have a massive fish, fish to aim at turtles in the system to clean up and eat the fish and purifies the water. So if you want to put that even one step further and talk about this, sort of a new term I learned last week is nature capital, you know, so there's ecosystem services. And then there's this other term is this nature, capital, the money goes to other finances. So having turtles clean numbers issue is much less expensive than some other human intervention that require, you know, some other aspects to it. So there's, depending on who you're talking to, you might tell them these different ways that turtles matter. But another important one from the biodiversity perspective, too, is that turtles have been called umbrella species. And that if you protect the turtle that you protect, it acts as an umbrella to that ecosystem, because the consequences, we talked about collateral damage and downstream consequences before when you protect them, you protect so much other stuff. And so you use you know, the planet external, for example, as your poster sort of child protection. And then when you protect that population, you protect all the ecosystem function. And you maintain that overall ecosystem integrity.
Leslie Anne St Amour 21:03
I'm a scuba diver. And so in my world, in my personal life, something we spent a lot of time doing is trying to convince divers to report their sightings of endangered species. And I think it's something that they often don't really care to do, because they don't see the value of their doing that but I think framing is nature capital, and that, you know, these endangered species are something exciting to see they'll they can bring more divers to the area, if people know they're there and kind of framing it in that way. It can be really helpful. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting.
And so we've talked a little bit about not only the value of this work in terms of conservation, by going back a little bit to the long term aspects of the studies, have you started to see the impacts of climate change in your work? I know you mentioned a little bit about the nesting time of turtles. Are there any other impacts you're seeing? Or even? Is it impacting the way you're able to do your work? does it impact the way we're able to do? In some ways, just a logistical fashion?
Jackie 22:13
It does, because it used to be that the university semester would end in beginning of April, and then we would transition to field season. But now field season starting a bit earlier, it makes it really hard, because there's lots of things happening at once. So I'm trying to finish my teaching and marketing everything for the semester, but also at the same time trying to get my grad students trained to get into the field, do what they need to do. So that's presents a bit of a challenge. In some place, you know, there's so much work that can be done. We have this this incredible long term data set from Algonquin Park. And we're we're only scratching the surface and starting to look at these a long term aspects of the studies have you started to see the impacts of climate change in your work? I know you mentioned a little bit about the nesting time of turtles are there any other impacts your seat, beginning of April, and then we would transition the field season. But now field season starting a bit earlier, it makes it really hard because there's lots of things happening at once. And so I'm trying to finish my teaching and marketing everything for the semester, but also at the same time trying to get my grad students trained to get out of the field and do what they need to do. So that's presents a bit of a logistical challenge. In some place, you know, there's so much work that work that can be done, we have this this incredible long term data set from Algonquin Park. And we're we're only scratching the surface and starting to look at these patterns that are in the data over time. And so we've just started with that nesting timing stuff. But there's so much more that we can do there. And we're working on it. It's just out there.
Leslie Anne St Amour 24:18
It's something that I'm really interested in, I read a piece that I think actually came out of the research center, I might be wrong. It was looking at the climate modeling of Algonquin Park over the next he goes up until 2015, if I remember right, and one of the big things they talked about was ice out, and how that's already being shown to be happening earlier and earlier. And so that's something I think about a lot now when thinking about conservation work is how will that change along with these impacts that are already being seen are?
Jackie 24:46
So one of the things about the ice situation that I think about with respect to turtles is that turtles do of course hibernate and weapons, and they have that Capra vise over top and then if the ice melts than it used to i, this is just a prediction that I worry about kind of thing, because then turtles may come out too early in the spring. And turtles can handle being in that wetland over the winter, because there's a very stable water temperature, right? It's about plus one, two plus three degrees Celsius. And they're, they're totally fine. But if they come out too soon in the spring, but then we still have these fluctuations that climate change predicts that nighttime temperatures might go down really low, and they might get caught out of the weather and freeze. So why worry about that I worry about this mismatching of behaviors with climate that might happen as a result of these changes in ice on and ice out and so and what the what the signals are that turtles are getting, you know, from the sky, or whatever it is at temperatures coming through the ice, and then the ice is there. For me. And again, it's all sort of speculative stuff. I think about it, I worry about.
Leslie Anne St Amour 25:49
We talked a little bit about citizen science already. But what are their What are other things that the general public can do to aid in conservation and protection of species at risk in general, as well as if you have any tips specific to turtles,
Jackie 26:02
A specific turtle one, of course, is helping turtles across the road. So you know, especially at certain times of the year, right, there's a spring migration of turtles, there's a nesting migration of turtles, and that there's a fall migration, again, as turtles back to hibernation sites. And so we tend to see turtles on the roads during that time. And so if it is safe to pull over and help that turtle across the road, simply carried across the road in the direction it was going. I will add to that a very important point about not relocating the turtle, you know, to your cottage or your camp, where you have a beautiful pond don't do that, because the turtle will be lost. So carried across it knows when it's doing, it's been doing it for probably 15 years. So just help it across in the direction it was going. So that's one like very pointed thing that people can do to help.
Leslie Anne St Amour 26:44
Can you confirm for any listeners that it is not true, the snapping turtle can bite off your finger.
Jackie 26:50
No, but a snapping turtle on land is frightened. And so it will try to defend itself. And if you're trying to help us after turtle across the group, it will often turn around and stab at you fingers, say to this turtle I have tried to help you try to get across. So that can also of course be a bit of a nerve wracking situation. So what you can do if you have a coat or a blanket in your car, just throw that over the turtle head and then carried across. And then it will try to stop what you write just feel covered. It'll be calmer and then you carry across or use the floor mat from your car and sort of put it up squish it onto the floor mat and then drag it across the road. But never pick up a snapper troll Lion's tail. I people think that they can do that because it keeps their hands away from the head of the turtle. But you can dislocate its vertebrae that tail, it's that's its vertebral column. So if you're holding a very heavy turbine's tail, you might cause some trouble there. So don't do that. And the smaller species, of course, are much easier to pick up and carry across staffers can be harder, but it's still possible and they will not bite off your finger.
Leslie Anne St Amour 27:47
Worst case scenario, that will not happen, everybody, they might pee on you.
Jackie 27:51
Well, that they will do that. And they will also snappers will rescue itself. But you know that they're doing that because he was a predator and they're trying to get you to leave him alone, especially because that turtles probably twice as old as you and telling you leave me alone, right. Another specific thing people can do this related to the citizen science idea is to report going back to your diamond example report things that they see. And so for example, the Toronto Zoo has a turtle tally that you can report sightings to, and then there's a naturalist, your mother and things like that. So that's a great thing to do, as well as to report those sightings. I would say another sort of bigger picture, things that can be done as well vote, take action and vote for politicians who care about the environment, and who care about our dangered species. And then, you know, donating to reputable conservation organizations that actually do grassroots conservation work, but also fund research. Because you know, of course, I'm an advocate for evidence based decision making, especially the conservation context, but that work does cost money. And if it's a reputable organization that's supporting good solid science, that's the best way to make good decisions. Once you've learned, tell it to people, share that information, share that knowledge and tell them why it matters. Like get that message out. And I would say one of the most important things is for all of us to get outside, take our kids outside and build a nature of empathy. So we, we protect the things that we love. And so our kids are the next ones who are taking care of this planet. So we need to get them outside and make them fall in love with turtles, and then we'll be okay.
Leslie Anne St Amour 29:22
I think that's a great way to put it. And in terms of the Algonquin Wildlife Research Station, I believe you said your nonprofit now Is there a way that folks are listening if they're so inclined, could support that organization?
Jackie 29:35
Absolutely. We do accept donations. And we have also a Patreon donation system to where you could give a little bit each month by becoming a patron. But yes, on our website, there is a information there about how to donate.
Leslie Anne St Amour 29:49
Now I just want to go catch turtles. Thank you so much, Jackie, for joining us for this this was such a fun conversation for me to have on a Friday afternoon.
Jackie 29:58
Good time to thank you so much.
Kiran 30:03
We so appreciate Jackie coming on the show to speak to Lesley Ann and tell us all about the incredible work that she and the Algonquin Wildlife Research Station do. If you want to learn more about the AWRS, you can find them online and on social media, the links are shown there and nonprofit and so if you like cheering about the work that Jackie does consider supporting them by becoming a member of their Patreon, or with a one time donation, can be done through their website. And now Leslie Anne and I discuss.
Leslie Anne St Amour 30:32
So tell me your thoughts about this interview.
Kiran 30:36
I think like my own nature, empathy has been something that's being built over time. And like I had great exposure to nature as a kid, I think that, you know, I probably had above average opportunities to go camping with my family and to interact with the outdoors. I even wonder if so I wish I'd known more about what I was interacting with. I think like the education paired with experience is a true powerful driver of empathy.
Leslie Anne St Amour 31:00
I think that's really, really true, especially because I have spent a lot of time in scuba diving communities in particular, where there are some people who scuba dive because it's an extreme sport. And it's a way to push yourself to the limit and go places other people can't go. And there's other people who dive because they love the water and want to see the fish and the coral and experience that and be close to that part of nature. And I think it's really important that just because you have like, I think you're really right, and that just because you exposure to nature in the environment, doesn't mean you necessarily develop that empathy.
Kiran 31:34
Yeah, and knowing the answers to those questions isn't just useful for the protection of others. I think it enhances one's own life, it really reminds me of outdoor branding and the culture of like outdoor climbing and rock climbing specifically. And it's been historically I think such a male and like white dominated culture. And that's changing now. But all of this language is about conquering being the first person to climb the tallest peak to do this hardest thing to have these feats of bravery, what do these reveal of the human soul and I think that layered in this state, you know, layered in this narrative, but we don't say explicitly is that I they're doing these things, because of the beauty of nature. And you know, there's all of this element of preserving nature, I think that the outdoor community is becoming more concerned about climate change, and is like advocating for it more, but it hasn't been historically, I think part of the culture, you know, drawing this point back to conservation, I think conservation and understanding it is something that can make the outdoor community and these pursuits less egocentric. Because their pursuit of the self and on one's own ability to endure and climb into walk ins, everything else is, you know, such an egocentric thing to do. And I think if we bring, you know, if we like have these more holistic understandings of what other things are, they're with us what other things are enabling the natural landscape to be this beautiful, and to thrive and be even, you even talked about in your interview, like all of these ancillary benefits that turtles have, and how helping turtles thrive also has very direct benefits for us, right? The Selfish argument for having humans thrive to being invested in the conservation of an area that you want to explore, I think is really essential.
Leslie Anne St Amour 33:11
Absolutely. And I think what's really interesting about conservation is unlike climate science, it's something that has a much longer history of acceptance within our academic institutions and within our government and policymakers. I mean, sometimes the science in conservation wasn't correct in the old days. To be clear, I'm not saying that just because it was science based, but every conservation decision that's been made is still correct, because we always are gathering new information. But I think it's really interesting when you look at some of the long term studies, for example, that are happening in Algonquin Park, like the turtle studies and the small mammal study, because that's a source of evidence that has been running and being generated since the 70s. That is already showing evidence of climate change. So while in parts of the world, we're still fighting over whether or not is climate change real is that human caused? Are we actually feeling effects, there's recognized scientific research that is already showing the evidence of these effects. It's just happening in a place that isn't synonymous with climate change. And so I think this conservation research is so important, because not only does it show us the effects of climate change, it can show us how species are starting to adapt or not adapt, which could not only inform our conservation efforts, but I think it's really important to look at and understand for ourselves and for our own benefit and the benefit of other species going forward as well.
Kiran 34:27
Definitely, I really enjoyed. You know, I think we need to be putting more and more time and effort into these practices. As Jackie mentioned, she mentioned, you know, the importance of funding, and also how funding sort of increases one's ability to do active conservation projects, as well as passive conservation projects. If you wanted to touch on that a little bit.
Leslie Anne St Amour 34:49
I thought that that was so interesting, and sort of the next step that observation should be taking. And I think, you know, scientists want to take if the resources are there for them to take it. Yeah, I know you and I have talked about this framework before the active conservation versus passive, because a lot of people solely think of conservation as fencing off an area, no one touching it. And that's our way of conserving it. But with active conservation, you have so many more options, because you can actually test whether or not aspects of conservation are working. And I think that's so important, especially going forward because our entire world is changing with climate change, and things that worked before for conservation may not continue to work. And we're going to need new ideas. And so I think it's more important than ever, that we continue to fund scientists doing this research and provide them with the funding to try new things and be creative and be out on the ground actually learning what works and what doesn't, because it's one of those things that there's no better time than now. Like, this is information we need now, and we can get now. So why are we waiting? Why are we not providing the necessary resources for this?
Kiran 35:51
Definitely. I also really like that the narrative and concept of actually active conservation, but just against the separation of humans from nature, you know, I think the Anthropocene is a trendy topic right now. And you always see, for example, Anthropocene on photo of mine, or on photo, oil sands, etc, on photo of plastics, but the fingerprint of humans on the places that they live has been going on for about as long as humans have existed. And a lot of the things that we think of is untouched, have still been, you know, imprinted by the human fingerprint in ways sometimes that we think are beneficial, but are actually detrimental to the natural environment. Like, for example, California, when you look around at California's environments, a lot of it's a lot of its like been controlled by humans in ways that are maybe aesthetic, but are actually not what it's supposed to look like and have been shown to be to its detriment. So I think that if we take away this idea that you just need to step back from the places that surrounded us, or even run away from them when the going gets tough that we need to actually be managing and nurturing them constantly. And we can do that in ways that make us act as a keystone species to improve the health of the environment is really key.
Leslie Anne St Amour 37:02
Yeah, and I think what's really interesting was the conversation Jackie and I had about the turtle nesting spots that they've created within the park, particularly in areas where traditionally, turtles would have to cross a road in order to access where they like to nest. And so these biologists have gone out and created ideal nesting sites in places where those turtles who would normally be heading to cross that road when hit those ideal nesting spots before they get to the road. And that's the kind of thing that we can do. And we can create a nature without causing too significant of an impact to other species and create these opportunities for umbrella species and important species like turtles to continue to thrive. I wasn't joking in the interview that I'm going to help my mom build a turtle nesting site in her backyard. We've already talked about it several times now. And that's something anyone who lives in a place where turtles are crossing their property to find a nesting spot could do if they want to help help protect those turtles and help put those turtles in a position where they don't have to cross the road, for example. So there are even ways we can leave our fingerprints all over nature in a way that's a added benefit for nature.
I think it's time this week for climate allies. What I really want to talk about is condo developers. Okay, and mangroves, mostly the mangroves. I think it's really, really fascinating. One mangroves are fascinating, but I think it's interesting that it's interesting have such an incredible and interesting ecosystem, but they're often seen as not particularly valued or desired. And when you look at the way coastal regions have used many of their coastlines for building condos and hotels and things like that. Often it means removing mangroves and changing the shoreline because people want beaches, which I get. I love a beach as much as the next person. But mangroves are wild mangroves can raise seat like the shore level where they are mangroves can stop surf, they can protect these buildings from storms and from flooding. And like all the little critters that live in them, and who doesn't love to get up in the morning and have their coffee on their balcony and just see a nice Heron fly by or maybe a fish jump or pelicans swoop and like scoop up nice big fish and maybe he drops the fish and then he laughs because he saw a fish fly. But that's not a flying fish. I want mangroves to be the desired shoreline for condos and hotels. Because from a practical perspective, they benefit those buildings so much by protecting them and acting as a climate adaptation measure and mitigation measures measure from the effects of climate change. And they're an aesthetic I can get behind. I'm into it.
Kiran 39:37
Thanks for listening to our show. Tune in next week to find out about solar, an aesthetic community and movement dedicated to reimagining what we can actually achieve with them. Think about the future. Not as Victorian grind for everyone is sad and worse rather than as a place where we achieve a solar punk attitude can enrich the lives of anyone.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
